Keeping the Conversation Going

Will Marks: So, Juliet, welcome to the Language Lab podcast. This one's been in the works Will Marks: for a while, so I'm genuinely really pleased that we finally managed to make it happen. Will Marks: I think we first started talking about this kind of around October-ish, Will Marks: and then since then I've been really looking forward to kind of getting the Will Marks: chance to sit down and properly chat with you and explore your work, Will Marks: and I saw your lovely talk at Language Lab, which is really interesting. Will Marks: I'm especially glad that we are doing this because your work sits right in the Will Marks: middle of so many things that this podcast keeps coming back to, Will Marks: like creativity and MFL, authenticity that actually means something, Will Marks: reducing language anxiety, supporting the next generation of language teachers Will Marks: without pretending that enthusiasm alone can survive all of the paperwork. Will Marks: Now, you're a lecturer in education at St. Mary's University, Will Marks: lead link tutor for secondary PGCA, MFL and IQTS, a fellow of the Chartered Will Marks: College of Teaching and a co-founder of the Creativity and MFL SIG. Will Marks: And you're also a teacher, which is just, as we said earlier in the pre-chat, Will Marks: like we are both ADHD nightmares when it comes to this. Will Marks: So we have like 500 different jobs. It's fine. And you spent years in the classroom Will Marks: in leadership. So you bring that lovely combination of theory, Will Marks: practice, and having actually had to make things work with real pupils. Will Marks: But rather than me just telling you everything about you, for those people who don't know... Will Marks: Your work? Perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself. Juliette Claro: Well, you've done it really well, having you know me more than I know myself. Juliette Claro: Yeah. So I've been teaching for 26 years in many different places around the world and in England. Juliette Claro: And I've been training teachers for years. I really enjoy mentoring. Juliette Claro: I was a PCM as well, a professional coordinating mentor, where I looked after Juliette Claro: all the early careers teachers and the trainees. Juliette Claro: And also I am an offset inspector. So through the years, I'm very privileged Juliette Claro: to be in classrooms a lot and observe a lot of lessons. Juliette Claro: And I think for me, just looking at how creativity is slowly disappearing in Juliette Claro: the lesson that I see right now, I'm just thinking, what's going on? Juliette Claro: Why? Why? Where is this creativity gone for? And then there's a seem to be a Juliette Claro: correlation with the lack of interest in languages and the lack of joyful moments in classrooms. Juliette Claro: I don't know. I have a theory that is interestingly linked personally, Juliette Claro: but you know, that's where my work comes from, I guess. Will Marks: I love that. And you're absolutely right from my perspective. Will Marks: Do you think, this isn't even a question from the list, but do you think there's Will Marks: a link there between teachers maybe feeling like it's not a priority, Will Marks: so feeling less enthusiastic and impassioned about their work? Will Marks: I don't know. I've at times myself, not in my current school, Will Marks: I love my current school and it's great. And like we said, last week I was Luke Will Marks: Skywalker dressed as a Jedi and having literal lightsaber fights with kids. It was great. Juliette Claro: I want to come to your school. Will Marks: It was so much fun. I have found at times in my career, you know, Will Marks: I felt that kind of feeling of Will Marks: If we are the last priority for SLT, for anyone else, what really is the point? Will Marks: If parents don't see the point of it, kids don't see the point of it, Will Marks: and SLT don't see the value of it, why am I doing this? And, Will Marks: you know, do you think that maybe that has a link? I don't know. Juliette Claro: 100%. I would say 100%. There's a really good book that I read a couple of years ago from Sammy Wright. Juliette Claro: It's called Examinations. I don't know if you've heard of that book. Juliette Claro: And that's exactly that. I mean, he's a head teacher and he was on duty and Juliette Claro: he was asking his kids, what's education for? Juliette Claro: And the kids kept saying to get good grades. And I think if you ask the kids, what's education for? Juliette Claro: Is it to get a good grade so I can get a job? And I think we are so over-focused Juliette Claro: with exams and the outcomes of young people. Juliette Claro: And for languages, it's basically focusing on the accuracy and the finished Juliette Claro: product, forgetting all the messiness that goes around learning languages and Juliette Claro: the fact that you will fail, you will get the negative, the feminine and the Juliette Claro: masculine wrong, the negative wrong. Juliette Claro: But that's part of learning a language. It's messy, it's not straightforward, it's not linear. Juliette Claro: And all of these little trips and problem-solving that comes along the way, Juliette Claro: that's what makes it fun and interesting. Juliette Claro: But because we need to have schools that are measurable and we need to measure progress Juliette Claro: every 20 minutes and we need to basically measure progress from a starting point Juliette Claro: to an end point, we're losing the messiness in the middle of it. Juliette Claro: And that's sad. That's why kids are stressed, I think. Will Marks: Yeah, well, you know, I remember being at school and having that conversation Will Marks: with my teacher and they'd say, you know, you've got your exams coming up and Will Marks: we need to focus on this, this and this. Will Marks: And yeah, I'd be a little bit like, okay, that worries me and maybe I haven't done enough work. Will Marks: I have that conversation occasionally with kids and I'm like, Will Marks: right, so assessments are next week. These are the topics you should be revising. Will Marks: And I watched their faces and I watched my year eights in my last school and Will Marks: I'd say their assessments coming up and they would go like, oh my God, Will Marks: oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And you think, guys, you're putting too much stress on yourself. Juliette Claro: Yeah. Will Marks: Realistically, I hate to tell you, but firstly, I know where you're at as a Will Marks: teacher. I know the areas because I know my classes that you need to improve Will Marks: on. I've seen your work. So realistically, this drive for all of this data is Will Marks: not for me. It's not for you. It's for the school tables. Juliette Claro: So, yeah. Will Marks: And I had this chat with Jane Handley. I don't know if you know Jane, but she's brilliant. Will Marks: And we came up with this idea. You know the GCSE roleplay? What in the entire Will Marks: of the GCSE roleplay mark scheme and everything? Will Marks: Where does it say that we can't be absolutely mental with it? Will Marks: Like, if we sat down and as the teacher went, or the kid was like, Will Marks: you know, why can't we do that? Juliette Claro: No, I know. Will Marks: Nothing says we can't. Let's have fun with it. I think if you're going to have Will Marks: fun in the curriculum, if you want more fun in the curriculum, Will Marks: we need to start with the exam. Let's make it fun. Juliette Claro: Yeah, agreed. And the fact that you're reducing the curriculum to 1,500 words Juliette Claro: limits incredibly the amount of creativity you can have with it. Juliette Claro: Because I always know the most reluctant child that really, they did French Juliette Claro: because their parents told them to do it. Juliette Claro: But you know those kids, right? They're in year 11, but they didn't really choose French. Juliette Claro: Dad or mom chose French for them, right? And to get them through, Juliette Claro: you say, what is your favorite word in French? Juliette Claro: And they'll say, hérisson, or like some random word. They'll say, Juliette Claro: well, I want you to put that word in. Juliette Claro: Whatever you do, you need to have an hérisson in your story and you need to Juliette Claro: have, you know, some random story about a sanglier or a wild boar, whatever it is. Juliette Claro: And then it makes them think about something bonkers and they're going to write Juliette Claro: about it. And they'll do it because they think it's fun. But the word sanglier Juliette Claro: and the word hérisson is no longer in the 1,500 words list. Do I take a risk Juliette Claro: by teaching them the word hérisson? Will Marks: Am I wasting time by actually teaching them the language? Should I just teach Will Marks: them a checklist for how they need to pass the exam? Will Marks: I have so for all my listeners by banging on about them. But I actually want Will Marks: yours. Normally, the standard way that I do this is the exam comes later in Will Marks: the interview, but actually we're there and I'm curious. Juliette Claro: Well, yeah, the problem is the exams. The problem to creativity is the accountability Juliette Claro: measures that we have, this obsession with measurements, measuring progress and outcomes. Juliette Claro: And if we don't change that system, that mindset, because the only way to bring Juliette Claro: back creativity and culture in the curriculum is to put it in the exam paper. Juliette Claro: It's very sad. It's very, very sad, But it's the only way, because unless the Juliette Claro: system in England change where we focus on the messiness and the problem solving, Juliette Claro: which is quite what does the DELF. Juliette Claro: You know, if you look at the common framework for assessment of languages, Juliette Claro: if you look at the way it's working, it's about problem solving. Juliette Claro: So they're not necessarily looking for perfect perfection or accuracy, Juliette Claro: but they want to have the candidates explore problem solve on the spot. Juliette Claro: And that's fun. That's the exact meaning of learning a language. Juliette Claro: And why can't we use some of that aspect of the common framework for language Juliette Claro: learning into the new curriculum review? The problem is the exam. I think we nailed it. Will Marks: Right, done. Have a lovely afternoon. Juliette Claro: End of conversation. Will Marks: But then, so I've had this discussion with so many people, and I remember having Will Marks: it with possibly one of my favorite people when it comes to language education. Will Marks: So I don't know if you know this. So my first head of department and my language mom is Jane Driver. Juliette Claro: Oh, right. Great. Will Marks: She pretty much is the reason. And so I'm going to say it's her fault that I Will Marks: have a teaching qualification. Will Marks: I had this conversation very early on with her and she raised such a good question. Will Marks: Like, if you got rid of GCSEs, what would you do instead? And that's the hole Will Marks: that we have to fill. That's the how do we do it without that? Will Marks: And you're right. Delft has some wonderful frameworks. it's so institutional Will Marks: and central now that it's like we have to dismantle a train before it hits the station. Juliette Claro: Literally, because if you look at the European countries, they have found a Juliette Claro: way of building their curriculum around the common European framework for languages. Juliette Claro: So whether you do a baccalaureate or you do your Abitur in Germany, Juliette Claro: or you're doing whatever language degree or qualification you do in Europe, Juliette Claro: your exam is framed around that framework, the skills that goes around that framework. Juliette Claro: If you were going to bring that in England, that means you have to get rid of Juliette Claro: the grades because it's a pass or fail. Juliette Claro: The system in itself is a pass or fail. So if you pass it, Juliette Claro: then great. If you fail, it's fine. Do it again. And you have different levels. Juliette Claro: You have the A11 and the A.11, and you have different sub-levels to it because it helps. Juliette Claro: But I think if you were trying to bring this level in, you could do it having Juliette Claro: a range of, oh my God, I'm speculating and rewriting the curriculum here. Juliette Claro: This is great. I mean, this is history. We're making history, Juliette Claro: but we could have a GCSE where you'll have like from an A1 to a B1. Juliette Claro: Do you see what I mean? You could potentially stretch it. And instead of having Juliette Claro: a grade as a 1 to 9, they'll have like a language proficiency grade, Juliette Claro: which I think would mean so much more for the kids. Juliette Claro: Now, in my school, we do the DELF. So all our students take the DELF on the Juliette Claro: side of the GCSE and we teach it together in parallel. Juliette Claro: If you would like to get Manon to speak about this, she's our head of French Juliette Claro: and she is absolutely amazing. Juliette Claro: She's another ADHD-er. She's another one that has like, basically, Juliette Claro: we both sat together and said, how can we get this to work? Juliette Claro: And we put a plan together and now she's running it. So year nine do the A1. Juliette Claro: So that motivates them because once they start to get into the A1, they want to do GCSE. Juliette Claro: So that boosts your numbers automatically because they see the relevance behind it. Juliette Claro: It's a real exam and the questions are actually interesting. Juliette Claro: They're not talking about the holiday that you've never been to, Juliette Claro: that you're making up, the holiday you've never been to. Juliette Claro: And then in year 11, they can enter the A2 if they want to. Juliette Claro: And most of the students who do the A2 automatically want to do A-level. Juliette Claro: So our numbers at A-level are really healthy because the DELF kind of creates that continuity. Juliette Claro: And then they do the B1 in year 12 and the B2 in year 13. And do you know what Juliette Claro: the funny story is? Last year, 4-4 2025, I had a student who got an E at A level Juliette Claro: and passed her B2. Explain that. Juliette Claro: She passed her B2. She failed her A level because on the day she was not feeling Juliette Claro: very good. And she did brilliantly on speaking, but she messed up the paper Juliette Claro: 1, the paper 2. And now she's in Juliette Claro: France studying and she got a place in university in Nantes with the B2. Will Marks: And Nantes is a fantastic university. I lived in Nantes. Nantes is a wonderful Will Marks: town as well. That's amazing. Will Marks: And that says so much. See, I'm in this dichotomy where I have to teach a GCSE Will Marks: that I just don't believe in. Juliette Claro: But we can make it fun. We can make creative. So teaching with that creativity Juliette Claro: aspect and bring that creativity, that authenticity and the culture in your Juliette Claro: lesson, that's what makes the kids want to do languages and want to carry on with it. Juliette Claro: And if you just do phonics, vocabulary and grammar on repeat, Juliette Claro: if I see every lesson I go to now, I can predict what I'm going to see. Juliette Claro: I'm going to see a retrieval practice on PowerPoint, and then I'm going to see Juliette Claro: phonics where they're going to drill words that have no connection with what Juliette Claro: they're learning, but they're learning the sound because it's the way that they've been taught. Juliette Claro: This is the way the curriculum works. And then they're going to learn new concepts, Juliette Claro: new grammar. That's not connected to the phonics, by the way. Juliette Claro: Often it's not. And then they do mini whiteboards. They do translation in one Juliette Claro: language and then back into the other. Juliette Claro: Then if they're lucky, they might do a game with the listening activity and Juliette Claro: the sentence builders. And then we'd come back to mini. It's predictable. Juliette Claro: You can predict the activities you're going to see in languages. Juliette Claro: You're a DHD like me. Can you imagine you going into a lesson like that? Juliette Claro: I would be climbing on the ceiling as a child. Will Marks: Yeah, I was not the easiest child in lessons. Juliette Claro: No. What made you want to learn the language? What did the teacher do to interest you? Will Marks: I mean, I was very lucky in terms of my language teaching. Firstly, Will Marks: I didn't do languages at primary school. Will Marks: I was taken out because I'm super dyslexic as well. And so they were like, Will Marks: yeah, you don't need to learn languages. Will Marks: You can learn English. That's an important one, but you don't need to learn Will Marks: languages, which always baffles me. Will Marks: Like I've never understood why we take kids out of French because firstly, let's look at the data. Will Marks: Dyslexia doesn't cross language barriers. So if you're dyslexic in English, Will Marks: you're not normally dyslexic in a foreign language. Will Marks: So surely that is a great level. Anyway, I was very lucky. I did like a high-speed Will Marks: course and I did year nine French into GCSE in like one year with this wonderful, Will Marks: firstly, I had a language assistant, just a wonderful language assistant. Will Marks: I can't remember, I think it was Polly. She was great. She was an absolute firecracker. Will Marks: She was no mess, but she would always just be like, bam, let's do this, let's do this. Will Marks: And she was all over the place. She was just as energetic as we were. Will Marks: Everything was a little bit, exactly like you say, a little bit chaotic and it was wonderful. Will Marks: And then we had another teacher who was just super understanding. Will Marks: If I was off task, she'd find a way of gently bringing me back into it And she'd make it about me. Will Marks: And everyone knows that us ADHDers, we love other people, but we really like Will Marks: talking about ourselves. Will Marks: It's a thing. I'm a little bit obsessed with everything that's in my head. Will Marks: You know, I want to get it out. And so she'd bring it back to me and she'd make Will Marks: it relevant to me. And she'd make it on my level as well. And she'd speak to Will Marks: me on my level. And there wasn't any kind of negativity around where you're Will Marks: just not good enough with that. Will Marks: There was actually one teacher who did the opposite and it worked. Will Marks: She told me, and I said this on last week's episode, but I'm going to say it Will Marks: again because now it's out there and I'm publishing it. Will Marks: She told me three weeks, three months, I can't remember exactly, Will Marks: but it was a short time before my A-levels. and she said I don't think you should Will Marks: be doing French you're not very good at it and then she looked at me and she Will Marks: went and let's be honest you obviously love your food Will Marks: so I think you should be a pastry chef okay and then I wanted to prove her wrong and I. Juliette Claro: Gave you motivation. Will Marks: Yeah it motivated me in totally the wrong way but it did and so I will always be thankful I guess for. Juliette Claro: Pushing you out of your comfort zone but you know it's interesting because you know those young people. Juliette Claro: Need that stimulation that motivation and that relevance what got you was the Juliette Claro: relevance right because he was talking to you and he was connecting with you Juliette Claro: And I had the same thing in school. Juliette Claro: I learned German. I learned English. Obviously, I'm French. So English was my language. Juliette Claro: I learned as French, right? But I had a wonderful teacher who could exactly Juliette Claro: do what your teacher did. Juliette Claro: She was connecting with me to my level. She knew how much I loved Nirvana, the Beatles. Juliette Claro: And she brought that in the lesson with translation of the lyrics, Juliette Claro: understanding the lyrics, singing out loud. Juliette Claro: And connecting that with me made that the rest of the class actually enjoyed it too. Juliette Claro: Because she said, if Julia's going to engage, then the rest of the class will. Juliette Claro: Because I was so erratic or chaotic in the lesson. Juliette Claro: But I loved English, you know, and she's the reason that I loved English. Juliette Claro: I hated German because my German teachers were more traditionalist with the Juliette Claro: textbook and doing, you know, declination. Juliette Claro: And I was just good at it because I have a thing with languages, but I didn't enjoy it. Juliette Claro: And I was messy in the classroom and I was naughty, but I was classified as Juliette Claro: a naughty child because basically if you were looking at a child like this now, Juliette Claro: you'd say, what can we do to help Juliet? Juliette Claro: What can we do to help Will, right? We look at it from that perspective of responsive Juliette Claro: teaching, which perhaps back in those days we didn't have. Juliette Claro: But actually what our kids want is something that connects with them, Juliette Claro: isn't it? And honestly, a language to say it's useful for, you know, Juliette Claro: getting good grades and to get a job, unless you want to work as a translator, not really. Juliette Claro: But it opens doors. And the problem solving and the skills that goes with it. Juliette Claro: Opens doors to other things. Juliette Claro: And that's how you hook the kids. I think the culture is the thing that hooks Juliette Claro: people to learn a language. Juliette Claro: Nobody wants to learn a language on Duolingo because suddenly they want to. Juliette Claro: There's something, either they have a boyfriend or a girlfriend that is that Juliette Claro: nationality, so they want to learn it. It's coming back to self-determination theory, isn't it? Juliette Claro: It comes back to that relevance and the connection with you, Juliette Claro: that motivation to want to learn it. Juliette Claro: And if we don't make that bridge with the kids about what's interesting with Juliette Claro: them, then we're losing the battle. Juliette Claro: And then we won't have any languages, linguists in the next 10 years. Juliette Claro: And we see nowadays, you know, another interest group that I co-chair is the Juliette Claro: support for international teachers. And as of yesterday, five o'clock, Juliette Claro: the government has shut bursaries for international trainee teachers. They're not seeing... Juliette Claro: The problem because the government is relying on domestic workforce. Juliette Claro: The problem is there is no language domestic workforce because there is no linguists Juliette Claro: coming through that pipeline, right? So we have very little kids taking A-level. Juliette Claro: We have less students. Even if you have an A-level, we have less and less students Juliette Claro: who want to do a full, pure degree in languages and cultures. Juliette Claro: Hence why universities are closing one after the other. Juliette Claro: Therefore, we have less and less languages teachers and linguists. Juliette Claro: And if you speak to the industry, they'll say, well, we don't want AI. Juliette Claro: We want people with brains and humans that can connect. Even MI5 and MI6 says they want real people. Juliette Claro: So there is a need for linguists. But if we don't change the curriculum, Juliette Claro: if we don't change that aspect of creativity, culture, connection, Juliette Claro: that's not going to change. Juliette Claro: So the problem is the exam. Will Marks: Yeah. Again, and it goes back to the exam. In my previous question, Will Marks: getting them to understand why languages were important when most of them were Will Marks: from a mechanical background or a farming background, trying to be like, Will Marks: hey, yeah, we're going to learn French. Well, they didn't have an interest in that. Will Marks: Why? Because it didn't relate to them. And I went in following the skin work Will Marks: that was there and it said basically like, we're going to link it with careers Will Marks: and we're going to say, right, you can become a language teacher or a journalist maybe or a translator. Will Marks: I did some student voice and I said, why do we learn languages? Will Marks: And the first time I did it, the first couple of years, it says for GCSE or Will Marks: to learn languages or academic response. Will Marks: And my biggest pride point. Yes, I brought numbers up. And yes, Will Marks: I did a lot of other things in that school. Will Marks: And there are lots of things I was proud of. But my biggest pride point was Will Marks: that three years later, I did the same student voice every year. Will Marks: But three years later, I did the same student voice. The main answer to that Will Marks: question was, why do we learn languages? Communication. Juliette Claro: Yeah. Will Marks: And I was done. And I was like, yeah, done my job. That's not when I decided Will Marks: to leave, but I did kind of go, yeah, it was for something, you know, I'm happy. Juliette Claro: And I think that's quite interesting, isn't it? Because sometimes it's not about Juliette Claro: selling languages for the sake of selling languages. Juliette Claro: And if you do it right, you don't need to sell languages. If you teach languages Juliette Claro: in a fun, joyful way, where they are enjoying recycling Juliette Claro: the vocabulary in creative context, they're learning about culture, Juliette Claro: they have access to songs and poems, and they can discuss, you know, Juliette Claro: really important things to do with race, to do with sustainability. Juliette Claro: And it's not perfect. There will be mistakes, but who cares? Juliette Claro: You know, you correct the mistakes on the go. Juliette Claro: But what's important is what they're trying to do, right? And the process of Juliette Claro: making those sentences and creative these sentences. Juliette Claro: In the end, once they have that joyful moment of, oh, I made this debate, Juliette Claro: or we did this debate, I did this, I can do this, then you sold it. Juliette Claro: And that communication, you don't need to say, you need languages to be a journalist. Juliette Claro: No, I had kids who came from incredibly Probably working class background who Juliette Claro: wanted to do languages and went on to university to do languages because they just enjoyed it. Juliette Claro: It was just fun. And then I saw them later and they said, it's not as fun as Juliette Claro: it was at university. It's not as fun as it was. Yeah, I'm sorry. Maybe I... Juliette Claro: Did not get realistic in the classroom to see what the real world out there is. Juliette Claro: But you know, like I said, you have students, I had incredibly low engaged young Juliette Claro: people, year nine, boys. Juliette Claro: Do you remember when languages were still compulsory? That's how old I am. Juliette Claro: I actually taught when languages were still a core subject. And I used to have Juliette Claro: a bottom set, a set for year 11. Juliette Claro: And what I used to do with them is we used to have this thing called asset languages back then. Juliette Claro: So the language ladder basically recognised all the things they could do. Juliette Claro: And they also had the foundational course. So if they couldn't do GCSE, Juliette Claro: they had other things that they could do and you could be creative with them. Juliette Claro: So I would make them do like a magazine. They were creating magazine pages. Juliette Claro: So they had like a fashion page and they'll have like a les potins, Juliette Claro: the gossip page, the problem page. And that was creative. That was very low key. Juliette Claro: The kids were not climbing on the ceiling. It helps with their mental health. Juliette Claro: It helped regulate because trust me, 20 years ago, kids were actually worse Juliette Claro: than they are now in terms of behavior. Juliette Claro: People said the behavior is bad. No, it's not. The kids back then were far more crazy. Juliette Claro: And you had children who were really interested and wanting to, Juliette Claro: Miss, are we finishing our project today? Juliette Claro: What are we writing about today? I said, well, should we do a problem page? Juliette Claro: Yeah. And I really enjoyed it. And believe it or not, I had sentence builders Juliette Claro: in 2003. So the sentence builders are not new. Juliette Claro: I actually used them and it really helped them to build things, but they were creative. Juliette Claro: So I think it helps with loads of things. It helps with motivation, Juliette Claro: engagement, that self of satisfaction that you can do something. Juliette Claro: And it calms people down as well. When you have kids who have ADHD, Juliette Claro: but you give them to do something instead of listening for 40 minutes, Juliette Claro: they get engaged with what they're actually physically doing. Juliette Claro: So there's a lot to say about bringing project-based learning. Juliette Claro: Not all the time. You can't just do project-based learning. But in languages, Juliette Claro: creating podcasts, making movies, using AI to create a storyboard and things like that. Juliette Claro: There's so many things you can do. And the SIG and our interest group that we Juliette Claro: have, we have an amount of creative teachers in that SIG. Juliette Claro: And the things I see are so inspiring. Sadly, I think I'm preaching the converted. Juliette Claro: So I'm trying to recruit teachers who are not creative so they can join in so we can learn together. Juliette Claro: Basically what are the barriers. Will Marks: There we go i would consider myself creative and then i stop and think on a Will Marks: daily basis if i look back over my career yes i'm a creative teacher, Will Marks: the best moments in language education like i will never forget and there's Will Marks: a kid jason he was a wonderful kid had absolutely no interest in languages right Will Marks: for the whole time i taught him he was like nah and, Will Marks: nah bless him he's a great kid but then we did the music project and so we did Will Marks: language beats now i never stuck to language beats how language beats should Will Marks: have been done i was like, I want you to be creative. Will Marks: I want you to write your own songs. Let's do a rap. I will let you be creative. Will Marks: I will let you have fun with it. Obviously, I know that I don't want you using Will Marks: Google Translate for everything. I know that you're going to look up some words. Will Marks: Let's work on it together. Let's do some in class. Let's do it at home. Will Marks: But it's your song. It's your project. And I've got nice microphones and everything Will Marks: set up. And this kid, oh my gosh. Will Marks: I mean, I don't know where he got half of the words from, but he wrote a love Will Marks: song rap that was about 14 pages long. And, Will Marks: he just went for it and it was just so heartbreaking as well it's a lovely song Will Marks: but it was like his whole soul was in it and you could see it actually meant Will Marks: something to him and he tied it back to him and i just think when i think back Will Marks: over my career i can find times when i've been a really like creative teacher Will Marks: and then i think about my day-to-day and sometimes just think am i a Will Marks: creative teacher though because i can tell you so many lessons that fit into Will Marks: your i can tell you what's going to come up in this lesson yeah and it's kind of heartbreaking. Juliette Claro: I hear you because i think we are constrived by the system. Juliette Claro: And like when we ask our SIG members, what prevents you from being creative? Juliette Claro: A lot of them said the school policies, it comes from above. Juliette Claro: SLT says the kids can't be noisy, they can't do anything, you know, Juliette Claro: so chaos is not acceptable. Juliette Claro: Obviously, the exam pressures, you have so much content to cover that you don't Juliette Claro: have the time to be creative. Juliette Claro: Curriculum time, if you only have two lessons a week or one, Juliette Claro: then how do you bring creativity? So it was It's interesting to listen to that Juliette Claro: perspective, but coming back to your pupils here who connected with that music Juliette Claro: project, why are we losing that? Juliette Claro: For the sake of how do we bring back creativity, even if it's one lesson a week, Juliette Claro: even if it's once a fortnight, what can we do to bring back that sense of culture and creativity? Juliette Claro: And it could be something very simple. The other day I saw a lesson where they Juliette Claro: were teaching the rooms of the house. How boring is that topic? Juliette Claro: I mean, how dry can the topic be? Juliette Claro: The rooms of the house. But this teacher had basically used Spanish houses and Juliette Claro: the difference, you know, the fact that they have shutters and they have a patio Juliette Claro: in the middle and, you know, all of these different, and it helped them to do Juliette Claro: differences and comparatives with mass y menos. Juliette Claro: And they also have the new word in a box. So she's not expecting the kids to Juliette Claro: be dictionary on legs, but she gave them all the words that they needed to describe the house. Juliette Claro: And just basically, que hay en la foto, describe the pictures, Juliette Claro: which is GCSE stuff, but it's creative. Juliette Claro: They talk about culture. And then the task was you're an estate agent and you're Juliette Claro: selling a house in England to a Spanish person. Juliette Claro: So you have to sell it because obviously, bear in mind, they might not want Juliette Claro: to live in England because it's quite cold and rainy and the house are smaller. Juliette Claro: So you need to really go for it and sell it. And they had to write their script Juliette Claro: and in pairs, they had to make a video. Will Marks: I love that. Juliette Claro: And the video, obviously kids are so good now with AI and stuff like that. Juliette Claro: So they just went on to take videos of houses in Dubai, you know, Juliette Claro: like these massive mentions in LA. Juliette Claro: But they made it and they did it all in Spanish. So they recycled the vocabulary Juliette Claro: and they used the words and created something new that they engaged with. Juliette Claro: And that's under two lessons a week. Will Marks: Yeah, I think that's wonderful. Juliette Claro: Isn't it? Will Marks: That's amazing. Juliette Claro: So I think it's about reshifting the way we set the task. Juliette Claro: And instead of saying, oh, let's do a 90-word question, for God's sake, Juliette Claro: a 90-word question, the kids just don't want to do it. Juliette Claro: But if you say you're writing a vlog or you're doing a podcast, Juliette Claro: you need to write the script of your podcast. Juliette Claro: And then, you know, suddenly things become far more colorful and interesting Juliette Claro: than just say, let's do a 90-word question. And then you bring an element of Juliette Claro: culture into this and make sure the culture connects to the kids in front of Juliette Claro: you in terms of sensitivity, race, gender, etc. Juliette Claro: Then they engage. Then you've got an audience and it becomes far more fun and Juliette Claro: joyful than mini whiteboards and translation and phonics. Juliette Claro: And you can bring the phonics in because if you do a song, you know, Juliette Claro: you can pronounce the lyrics out loud. Juliette Claro: They don't know the words because the words are new words that they've never Juliette Claro: seen before, but they know the combination of sounds so they can guess how to Juliette Claro: pronounce the words. So you're empowering them to read new words in the language. Juliette Claro: So there's so many things you can do with songs, with poems, with pictures. Juliette Claro: And just use that instead of just relying on the same old, same old. Juliette Claro: Just try to bring that culture back, bring that authenticity, Juliette Claro: that creativity. Even if it's just like 15 minutes in every lesson, Juliette Claro: that makes a difference. Will Marks: I have to say, my favorite creative lesson that I would do was a Suno lesson. I love Suno. Juliette Claro: Yeah, me too. Will Marks: I'm all over Suno. Suno's great. And so a little while back, Will Marks: I was like, I've got revision sessions to do. We've got an assessment coming up. Will Marks: I don't want to sit down and do okay guys we're going to create a little revision Will Marks: booklet it's cut I don't want to do that this year I've done that many times Will Marks: or okay guys we're going to create a mind map with all of the vocabulary because Will Marks: I've done that 3,000 times so instead I was like alright guys you know what Will Marks: we've been studying so what I want is you're going to work in teams you're going Will Marks: to go through your books and you're going to write Will Marks: a song and then you're going to send it to me you're also going to work on a Will Marks: little bit on prompting so Will Marks: what makes a good prompt okay and you're going to send that to me you're going Will Marks: to decide on your style you're going to decide on the words from the last two Will Marks: previous topics you're going to put it into a song does it rhyme doesn't it Will Marks: rhyme let's have fun with it let's work it out and then we're Will Marks: going to put it into suno and you're going to create a suno song for your revision Will Marks: and then i'm going to send it out to all of you so you can listen to your revision Will Marks: as a song so as you're sitting in the exam obviously we're in exam conditions Will Marks: but if i don't see at least one of you having a little boogie to remember what Will Marks: the ending of this sentence is then i'll be a little bit annoyed to be honest and Will Marks: actually was it the most in-depth lesson in the world well actually it was pretty Will Marks: in-depth because they were going back through everything they've learned in Will Marks: the last six weeks and they were putting together a song using that stuff so Will Marks: they had to think about what the sounds were because does it rhyme doesn't it Will Marks: rhyme etc does that fit is it the right number of syllables Will Marks: and they were working together which i always find is a wonderful motivator Will Marks: and they were working against each other because at the end we voted on the Will Marks: best song because you know why not, Will Marks: and they were allowed to be creative so we had two in the style of justin bieber or. Will Marks: I think it was Ariana Grande in that kind of style and two Rammstein styles Will Marks: which was just a very opposing you know and obviously Will Marks: SLT loved the fact that I put full volume it was great it was fun it was creative Will Marks: and it was exactly the same thing as I would have done had I gone okay guys Will Marks: we're going to go back to our books we're going to find the key phrases we're Will Marks: going to sit down we're going to write those out it's the same lesson yep in Will Marks: a much more creative and engaging way. Juliette Claro: So Will now you're going to come to the SIG meeting on the 23rd of June to talk about that lesson. Will Marks: I would love to is it online? Juliette Claro: Yes it's on Teams I'll send you the invite but we have you remember the lovely Juliette Claro: lady michelle that came to talk about suno at the language world yes they're Juliette Claro: coming to talk um about suno and what they do so actually you can show and share Juliette Claro: a show off your lovely revision lesson that's perfect. Will Marks: I would love that i genuinely. Juliette Claro: Would it's at 4 p.m english time so that's seven o'clock for you and it's on Juliette Claro: team so i'll send you the link it will be so lovely to hear that lesson sounds amazing. Will Marks: I would absolutely love to more than happy to talk about anything soon. Juliette Claro: But this is the thing you know and it motivates the kids because a lot of the Juliette Claro: time we're scared of AI and, oh my God, you know, this is going to replace languages. Juliette Claro: No, it depends how you use it. It's all depending on how you use the tool. Juliette Claro: Looks like I'm losing my voice at the moment. Will Marks: So if I'm creative, my partner is on a new level. So she's just rebuilt all Will Marks: of her schemes and work and all of her curriculum. Will Marks: She does a project on art and plastic in the sea, in the oceans. Will Marks: And she's basically asking me to only drink bottled water at the moment because Will Marks: she needs bottle tops. Then they're going to make art out of bottle tops for Will Marks: a year six project. And then it ties into an artist who only does like work with scrap plastic. Juliette Claro: That's amazing. Creativity. It's trying to think out of the box of what you Juliette Claro: can do with young people. Juliette Claro: Absolutely brilliant. Love that. But yes, Suno, love Suno. And the fact that Juliette Claro: the kids engage with it. I had a trainee teacher who I observed with a year Juliette Claro: nine class and the kids were sleeping on the table. And she had feedback from her teacher. Juliette Claro: And as I observed the feedback and the feedback was like, oh, Juliette Claro: the behavior was good. And after the lesson, I said, the behavior was good, Juliette Claro: but were they learning anything? And then the teacher said, well, Juliette Claro: they always like that in lessons. You know, it's a very difficult class. It's boys heavy. Juliette Claro: They're not really interested in learning languages. so you know the fact that Juliette Claro: they were behaving and yes there was a few heads on tables but you know they were actually Juliette Claro: respectful and I said well I'm sorry I think I have a problem with Juliette Claro: the fact that they have heads on tables because they're not learning anything Juliette Claro: and then it was like the dialogue went down the line of what it's there for Juliette Claro: because you know they're in year nine they didn't choose languages they don't Juliette Claro: want to carry on with it they've made their choices you know we've all been Juliette Claro: there we've all been in that situation how do I motivate year nine who have not chosen languages So Juliette Claro: I said, well, you've got a majority of boys here. Juliette Claro: And I look in the seating plan. I said, you have a lot of boys with a lot of Juliette Claro: needs. A lot of them had barriers to learning coming out of their ears. Juliette Claro: Some of them were people premium. Some had dyslexia, ADHD. Juliette Claro: One had a sensory issue. And I said, you've got quite a lot of young people Juliette Claro: with a lot of barriers to learning here. Juliette Claro: What do you think would work for them? And she said, well, you know, Juliette Claro: we've tried different things. Juliette Claro: Nothing works, you know. So I said, well, you know what? Juliette Claro: There's one thing that's universal with everyone, regardless whether they're Juliette Claro: high ability, low ability. Juliette Claro: That thing is called music. Everybody loves music. Everybody has AirPods in Juliette Claro: their ears. Teenagers have streaks of hours of hours on Spotify or iTunes. Juliette Claro: They all listen to music. So there's one thing you can win them in is with music. Juliette Claro: So we planned the lesson with Suno. We did something similar where basically Juliette Claro: she used the sentence builders, she taught them the vocabulary, Juliette Claro: and then they used the vocabulary to create a rap or reggae or reggaeton or Juliette Claro: something, whatever they wanted to do. Juliette Claro: And they had to write the lyrics first. So it was their piece. Juliette Claro: And then they had to create their song. And the next lesson, Juliette Claro: she said, oh my God, they were like a different class. And I'm like, there you go. Will Marks: Because you've motivated them into something that they want to do. Juliette Claro: I've done my job. Exactly. That's all it is, isn't it? Juliette Claro: There's nothing revolutionary. It's the same lesson, the same sentence builders. Juliette Claro: It's just you're not bashing them with mini whiteboards, which they don't want Juliette Claro: to do because they've done it in maths, in science, in history, Juliette Claro: in geography, the last five lessons before. Juliette Claro: They are board stiff of mini whiteboards. I don't have a problem with mini whiteboard, by the way. Juliette Claro: I think they're brilliant. They have their place in education. Juliette Claro: But I think imagine children who do that six lessons a day. Juliette Claro: It's coming a little bit repetitive. And they love drama. They love art. Juliette Claro: They love PE because it's the only lessons where they're not doing the same Juliette Claro: thing. It's quite engaging. So if we can do this in languages, Juliette Claro: use the mini whiteboard to test knowledge. Juliette Claro: Fine. But that should not be 40 minutes of the lesson. It should be a very quick Juliette Claro: check on learning and then do something fun and joyful. Will Marks: It's the AFL afterwards, isn't it? It's the little, oh, have you got it? Will Marks: OK, cool. Now we can move on. That's what I was always taught. Will Marks: And you're absolutely right. Will Marks: Like one school I worked in a little while back had moved over to doing, Will Marks: I'm not going to say exactly what, yeah. Will Marks: And it was fantastic. There was a lot of good stuff. This organization gave Will Marks: them a lot of good ideas and there was a lot of good training in there. Will Marks: But one thing that they said was like mini whiteboards, right? Will Marks: Everyone has to use them. Will Marks: And we had these groups that were science teachers, history teachers, Will Marks: math teachers, French teachers, DT teachers. And I'll never forget, Will Marks: one of my best mates at the school was a DT teacher. And he would sit there Will Marks: and he would go, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie. Will Marks: I don't really see how I can use that in my lesson and how it's going to be. Will Marks: To work but uh you know square peg round hole but i'll i'll get a hammer we'll Will Marks: try and make it work and he came Will Marks: back and was like yeah i tried it i don't really know and that was fine, Will Marks: we did this kind of observation system where I went and observed one lesson Will Marks: and then another lesson and throughout the day we kind of observed other people's Will Marks: lessons and all of them were exclusively using Will Marks: mini whiteboards. And I was like, two things. As a head of department, Will Marks: I just spent almost like three quarters of my budget on books. Will Marks: And now we're going to do everything on mini whiteboards. Will Marks: I mean, that's poor planning. But also, these kids are, you say, Will Marks: going to go from maths to science to history to French. Will Marks: And by the end of it, they're going Will Marks: to be like, my hands are covered in whiteboard pen and just I'm bored. Juliette Claro: Yeah. And it's the education now is one of the things that we presented at NALA Juliette Claro: back in February with Charlotte Ryland from the Anthea Bell Oxford University, Juliette Claro: is another barrier that we found in our SIG was the standardized curriculum. Juliette Claro: Like you said, you know, SLT dictating from above how lessons should be taught. Juliette Claro: So mini whiteboard for everybody. This is like dictatorship of what the language Juliette Claro: or slide should look like, and it should be identical to the science slides Juliette Claro: and everything should be taught the same way. Juliette Claro: So we see from our colleagues in the SIG that happens, you know, Juliette Claro: and trainees in our schools who train to be teachers, they are not allowed to Juliette Claro: plan lessons because they have to teach lesson 23 out of 35 on the curriculum. Will Marks: Which quite often is the same as the whole trust. Juliette Claro: Oh yeah yeah yeah so I have an anecdote here actually and I'm not sure if I'm Juliette Claro: allowed to name drop but actually this is really an interesting one. Juliette Claro: I had a trainee who was in one of the Harris Federation schools and I went to Juliette Claro: observe the lesson and at the end she followed you know the policies and she Juliette Claro: had an evaluation at the end where the students had to write a paragraph about Juliette Claro: I think describing members of your family. Juliette Claro: Using a or a, the third person and los ojos del pelo. Juliette Claro: And then she did 40 minutes revision. And then she said, now we're going to Juliette Claro: do the evaluation and you need to use your knowledge organizers. Juliette Claro: So at the end, I asked, I said, so what is this task? Is this an evaluation? Juliette Claro: Is this a creative task? What is it? Because you let the kid use the sentence Juliette Claro: builders and the knowledge organizers. Juliette Claro: So if it's an evaluation, what are you testing? Because it's not testing memory Juliette Claro: because they're using the knowledge organizers. Juliette Claro: Is this the creative task? In that case, it was not very clear. Juliette Claro: So I was wondering whether the trainee got that wrong. And then the mentor said, Juliette Claro: oh, no, it's just the way we do things in the school. Juliette Claro: And I was like, oh, OK, that's fine. So I left it to that. And then I said, Juliette Claro: so how about that lovely activity that you had at the end? Juliette Claro: You turn that to describe the character of a video game, you know, Juliette Claro: a monster in your video game and or in a storyboard and describe that monster. Juliette Claro: How many eyes does he have? What color of hair does he have? How many arms and so on? Juliette Claro: And she said, oh, that's a good idea. I said, well, just give it a go and see how it works. Juliette Claro: And she said, oh my God, the next lesson, they wrote far more than they did Juliette Claro: in the evaluation. So then I went to Julien Violette, who is the subject lead Juliette Claro: for the Harris Federation. And I kind of explained this anecdote. And he was like, what? Juliette Claro: I said, but I never wanted this to happen. I never wanted this to be so dry. Juliette Claro: This is not how our curriculum at Harris is supposed to be. There is element Juliette Claro: of creativity. And bless him, he sent me his entire scheme of work for the entire Juliette Claro: Federation. And there is a lot of elements of flexibility and adaptability in Juliette Claro: the scheme of work. But I think what's happening is. Juliette Claro: Teachers just take things off the shelf and it gets diluted through the trust. Juliette Claro: And the common person, teacher like you and me, who arrive and hasn't had necessarily Juliette Claro: the induction from Julien, who is the brain who wrote that curriculum. Juliette Claro: It's kind of lost, you know, it gets lost in the trust, in the massiveness of the trust. Juliette Claro: So it's really interesting because I think everybody who writes centralised Juliette Claro: curriculum, nobody has bad intentions. I think everybody wants to do the right thing. Juliette Claro: But by having this centralised curriculum, we have a problem of de-skilling Juliette Claro: teachers, of thinking about what adaptive teaching means. Juliette Claro: Adaptive teaching doesn't mean just giving sentence builders and knowledge organisers Juliette Claro: and, you know, extensions. It's about adapting the task to the kids in front of you. Juliette Claro: And sometimes bringing that element of creativity and fun is this is what they need. Juliette Claro: Your kids, maybe they need a bit of like you, you know, that teacher that connected with you. Juliette Claro: That is exactly what you needed. And that is adaptive teaching. Juliette Claro: And I think we've lost the meaning of adaptive teaching to basically creating Juliette Claro: back into differentiation where we say, oh, well, have some sentence builders, Juliette Claro: have a glossary, have this, have that. But actually, we're not making the language Juliette Claro: accessible by doing that. Will Marks: No, I think there is a very important line between using linguistic tools and Will Marks: scaffolding in a way that allows them to access it, Will Marks: but then removing it, actually teaching it, using that tool to actually teach Will Marks: it, and then removing that and allowing them to actually use what they have Will Marks: learned because again in another school when I first got there Will Marks: in order to try and tie them in I used endless sentence builders and sentence Will Marks: builder sheets because I needed to get a baseline of okay we can actually sit Will Marks: down and stop throwing things at the teacher like, Will Marks: because they were so disheartened because they'd had literally like nine months Will Marks: of their year so far had been cover teachers so Will Marks: it was traumatic but we got them to a level and then I started removing that Will Marks: once I got the buy-in a little bit with okay it's not impossible and that's Will Marks: okay for a short if you ask me to get them to buy in. Will Marks: But then you take it away. Again, then you actually have to remove it because Will Marks: otherwise you're just saying, Will Marks: okay, this is an A plus B equals C task. And there's no fun in that. Will Marks: There's no engagement in that. There's no difficulty in that. Will Marks: And half of actually making language education engaging and fun is that there Will Marks: has to be enough challenge to it. Will Marks: It is a challenging topic. And what we're doing is saying learning a language is tricky. Juliette Claro: It is. There's no learning without struggle. There needs to be an element of Juliette Claro: desirable challenge, desirable difficulty. Juliette Claro: I can't remember the exact terminology. But to make a change in long-term memory, Juliette Claro: there needs to be an element of struggle with the content. Juliette Claro: You're right. Learning a language is not easy and you learn through making mistakes Juliette Claro: and mistakes are great and they are important. Juliette Claro: And then you correct as you go along and you value the mistakes. Juliette Claro: But I think the problem going back to the point at the beginning is that with Juliette Claro: the exam, we only value the finished product, not the process of learning the language. Juliette Claro: And that is quite discouraging for young people who struggle with literacy in Juliette Claro: English at first, right? Juliette Claro: So if they really struggle to decode and comprehend, once they're given something Juliette Claro: in a foreign language, you just go, I can't do that. Juliette Claro: Because you just feel like you're struggling with it. So it's about levelling. Juliette Claro: It's levelling to the levels of the kids. And I find that all of these lessons Juliette Claro: are standardised. So then that means that if you're in a trust that's across Juliette Claro: the country, whether you're in Kent or you're in Manchester, Juliette Claro: you're all doing the same lesson. We're not robots. Juliette Claro: What's happening to the human aspect of education? Juliette Claro: I mean, I don't know about you, but I can do one PowerPoint. Juliette Claro: You know, you've been there when you have four year sevens, right? Juliette Claro: You see them once a week and you have four year sevens. You do one PowerPoint, Juliette Claro: that PowerPoint will be taught in four different ways because they're all different Juliette Claro: individuals with their own different perks, right? Juliette Claro: So you will tweak that PowerPoint and you'll have different slides and say, Juliette Claro: well, I'm not going to do that game because it's Friday period five. Juliette Claro: So I'm clearly not going to do that now. So you kind of think about what can Juliette Claro: I do on the Friday period five when it's been raining and windy. Juliette Claro: Instead of that game that I did Monday period one, And what can I do to calm everybody down? Juliette Claro: So you think on your feet, right? But I just don't think there's enough of this Juliette Claro: anymore. You know what? There's another thing that gets me is we replace that Juliette Claro: really fundamental craft of making fun, joyful lesson, which is extremely satisfying for a teacher. Juliette Claro: I absolutely love planning lesson and finding resources and finding a new game. Juliette Claro: When someone comes with a new game, I'm like, oh, how do I play that? Juliette Claro: You know, because I'm kind of bored of battleships and the same old stuff. Juliette Claro: But somebody gives me a new game like, oh, exciting. Juliette Claro: And, you know, I'm like, oh, let's go and play this and or try this new activity. Juliette Claro: But now what's happening is we replace that what they call workload, Juliette Claro: because it's now qualified as planning is now workload with an admin task. Juliette Claro: So we're doing more spreadsheets and tracking and intervention and writing emails Juliette Claro: and responding to emails who are often written by ChatGPT. Juliette Claro: So what you do, then you put the email into ChatGPT and then the bots are talking Juliette Claro: to each other. So this is what we are now. We're basically administrators, Juliette Claro: but we've lost that fun aspect of our job that gives us satisfaction is to plan Juliette Claro: lessons. And then the kids respond to it. Juliette Claro: And you're like, yeah, that's what I keep saying to my trainees. Juliette Claro: I said, you know, when you have a class that's really difficult and you manage Juliette Claro: to get them to do a task and they do it, it's so rewarding. Will Marks: I had a beautiful realisation moment. There is that part of me that's just like, if I'm teaching food... Will Marks: And you stick seven pieces of fruit on the board on a slide in front of me. Will Marks: That's all I need. I can teach 15 different lessons from that one slide and Will Marks: I can teach it in 500 different ways and I'm good. Will Marks: Like I know that there are some teachers who have to like sit down and plan Will Marks: everything. I suddenly remember the fun of doing that. Will Marks: And I do think as well, like we've had successive years of having to provide, Will Marks: and I know we don't have to now, but lesson plans and lesson resources and how that is broken down. Will Marks: And, you know, you've got your scheme of work, but you've then got your scripted Will Marks: out. Okay, so in every lesson, I'm going to cover this, this, Will Marks: this, this, and this. and I'm going to do it in exactly this way. And I'm going to... Will Marks: And I think by going through it in such a level of detail, you remove that kind Will Marks: of tangential fun learning where you go, actually, it might just be really fun Will Marks: to do a little bit of that. And hey, guys, do you know where the word education Will Marks: actually comes from? A little bit of random stuff. Juliette Claro: Yeah, but you're not allowed to go off a tangent because you haven't followed Juliette Claro: the plan. You go off a tangent and then you get a lesson observation and then Juliette Claro: the SLT member would say to you, oh, well, why were you talking about that? Juliette Claro: What's that connection? Everything has to be so black and white. Juliette Claro: You made me think of the more I go into schools, that one of our Ofsted inspection Juliette Claro: questions that, you know, it's not, it's transparent. Juliette Claro: Everybody knows what we ask. One of the questions is, you know, Juliette Claro: how are leaders looking after your well-being? Juliette Claro: You know, how are you being looked after in terms of your workload? Juliette Claro: And what's really interesting is often I hear teachers say, oh, Juliette Claro: it's really good in my school. You know, we hardly have any meeting and we can Juliette Claro: leave at 3.30 or 4 o'clock. Juliette Claro: And, you know, and I'm like, oh, that's good. So how do you work together to Juliette Claro: plan? You know, oh, well, everything Juliette Claro: is done for us. So everything's centralized. So it's really easy. Juliette Claro: We don't have to do anything so we know we only have one meeting a fortnight Juliette Claro: and i said oh that's really good so what do you do in your meeting well we do Juliette Claro: cpd i said oh that's good so what type of cpd you do and often it's generic Juliette Claro: it's often generic cpd that is linked with beanie whiteboard or behaviors Juliette Claro: safeguarding of course it needs to be there but and i said so what subject specific Juliette Claro: cpd do you get and it's very little very little so Juliette Claro: comes back to my point we're removing this essential planning and crafts of planning. Juliette Claro: Creative and engaging lessons with other stuff. Juliette Claro: Fluff. I call it fluff, but I don't know what it is. But that's why teachers Juliette Claro: leave the profession, because they think this is not rewarding. Juliette Claro: Spending your time answering email and doing spreadsheets and tracking progress, Juliette Claro: which is fictional because the progress, as you know, in languages, it's not linear. Juliette Claro: So you have to pop up some predicted grade on top of your mind. Juliette Claro: Although your exam board are telling you do not predict grades this is a new Juliette Claro: exam what we already do on Facebook anybody's got a spreadsheet to do the great Juliette Claro: predictions because SLT Juliette Claro: ask for it so there's this element of accountability measures that comes from Juliette Claro: Ofsted and I put my hand up because I'm an Ofsted inspector Juliette Claro: the change in a framework is designed to, Juliette Claro: relieve that pressure of accountability to think about how the leaders are thinking Juliette Claro: about the development of their teachers and you know that is an entitlement I think. Will Marks: Okay, I'll level with you. I've had my gripes with Ofsted. I think they're a Will Marks: very important force. And I think what you do is fantastic. I also think that Will Marks: at times it has not necessarily... Juliette Claro: No, I agree. Will Marks: And actually, that's one of the things you said was really refreshing in your talk at Langjord. Will Marks: You're like, I wanted to see how it worked from the other side. Will Marks: But I do think sometimes there is that aspect, Will Marks: the same thing that we were talking about earlier, where everyone has the right Will Marks: intentions and then it gets watered down through the kind of root system and Will Marks: all the nutrients gets taken out as it goes down and it ends up with this kind Will Marks: of dry mat of what you have to do left. Will Marks: And I think that's possibly what's happening there a little bit which is somewhat Will Marks: heartbreaking i think there's a lot of positivity Will Marks: in languages. And I think there's a lot of possibility for creativity. Will Marks: For me, there's two things. And I'm going to ask you two questions at the end, Will Marks: which kind of echo this. But for me, there are two things, the exam and trusting Will Marks: your teachers. If you do that, your school's going to achieve well. Juliette Claro: And the problem is, you know, with trusting the teachers, what's happening is Juliette Claro: the new generation of teachers coming in who, Juliette Claro: have not been allowed to plan lesson and be creative because they were in a Juliette Claro: school where everything was standardized means that they are basically PowerPoint Juliette Claro: facilitators and they're not able to plan this. Juliette Claro: So coming back to your point, if Juliette Claro: we're not enabling that creativity with teachers, we need at some point to Juliette Claro: train those teachers, retrain those teachers who don't know how to be creative Juliette Claro: because at one point they will have to write schemes of work because we all Juliette Claro: are the oldies who are still being creative. Juliette Claro: We're going to retire at some point and we need a younger generation to write Juliette Claro: schemes of work that are engaging. Juliette Claro: And I'm hoping that there's a lot of our young trainees are so interested, Juliette Claro: so passionate about trying to be creative and bring fun, joyful content in the classroom. Juliette Claro: They're not let to in a lot of schools that they are in because it's so constrained. Juliette Claro: So I have hope. And I think we're surfing a wave of change. Juliette Claro: And it was nice. I think the language world was refreshing. There was a lot Juliette Claro: of really strong discussion about creativity, about, you know, Juliette Claro: the new curriculum review and talking to Juliette Claro: NCLE and Bernadette and the team really kind of made me think that perhaps there Juliette Claro: is a will to change and bring culture back in the curriculum, Juliette Claro: to bring creativity back in the curriculum. Juliette Claro: And somehow, if we can bring a creative task in the GCSE, maybe that is the Juliette Claro: answer. Who knows? Can we measure creativity? Can we put a grade on that? I mean... Will Marks: And if we can, can we make it a pass-fail? Juliette Claro: Can you make it a pass-fail? I don't know. But it's almost like in order for Juliette Claro: things to be considered, it has to be in the exam papers or in an offset framework Juliette Claro: because otherwise people don't care and don't do it. It only gets to change Juliette Claro: if it becomes an accountability measure. It's quite sad, isn't it? Will Marks: That's a bit heartbreaking. Juliette Claro: It is heartbreaking. Will Marks: On that note, I've got two questions which I always ask and then we're going Will Marks: to wrap up. So first question, if you had a magic wand and you could just wave Will Marks: it and completely delete something from language education, what would it be and why? Juliette Claro: The exam. Change the exam. Just change it and make it relevant to young people. Juliette Claro: It's not relevant. The kids don't relate to any of it. Juliette Claro: Writing an account of a skiing holiday for somebody who lives in the council Juliette Claro: estate who will never go on a skiing holiday and they say they are told, oh, just make it up. Juliette Claro: Come on there's so much elements and then they reformed the but the new GCSE Juliette Claro: is supposed to be easier I mean I don't know if you sat through the new GCSE Juliette Claro: speaking exams but they are incredibly dull Juliette Claro: yeah and not engaging and not relevant so I think the big problem is the exam Juliette Claro: and looking at the way they do it in Europe and how they assess young people Juliette Claro: in Europe there's a lot to learn there Juliette Claro: and also starting early in primary school and that transition and that continuity Juliette Claro: is so important that's what i would scrap i would scrap the exam and just make it more relevant. Will Marks: Amazing and i will say actually working in an all-through school it's amazing Will Marks: like this first all-through school i've ever worked in i have year sixes who Will Marks: are writing me three paragraphs and i'm like how the amount and what they're Will Marks: writing is just so good that i'm Will Marks: just bowled over by it which is amazing like and by the time you get to year Will Marks: eight my year eight right now could pass gcse easily and that's amazing that's Will Marks: an experience i'm just like wow Will Marks: and i love it okay so second question then actually i'm gonna be mean here Will Marks: And I'm going to say you're not allowed to say creativity or fun. Juliette Claro: Okay. Will Marks: Because I know that's what you would go to. What is one thing you're excited Will Marks: to see more of in the next five years in language education? Juliette Claro: Music. More music. Because, you know, you learn through music. Juliette Claro: You memorize things through music. It helps kids with complex needs. Juliette Claro: It calms kids with anxiety down. It makes people help to memorize. Juliette Claro: It helps you to be creative and reuse the prior learning into something new. Juliette Claro: Music. When I came to England, I was picked up as a French assistant. Juliette Claro: I think it was the 2nd of September, 2000. And the head of languages picked me up in his car. Juliette Claro: It was raining. And he said, oh, on y va, on y va. On va enseigner les yotennes. Juliette Claro: And I was like, what is going on? This man is crazy. And he put my two suitcases. Juliette Claro: He threw the suitcases on the sand and he got his guitar. And then he walked Juliette Claro: in the classroom and he started to sing along the verb and imperfect to the Juliette Claro: yotenne. And the yotenne was singing along. And I was like, where am I? Juliette Claro: What is this? And I just was blown away. Juliette Claro: I can't sing. I can't play the guitar. But I was sold. I was like, Juliette Claro: this is where I want to be. These are my people. Juliette Claro: I want to do, this is how I want to teach languages. In fact, Juliette Claro: there is a YouTube clip out there that was Doga from a student of mine who's now in his 30s. Juliette Claro: But he found me on Facebook and then he said, oh, Miss Clarot, Juliette Claro: he said, do you remember this? And then he sends me the link. Juliette Claro: And then there's this French lesson. It's actually embarrassing, Juliette Claro: right? It was the very beginning when we first had the first webcams. Juliette Claro: Do you remember the webcam that used to sit on your computer with. Will Marks: The round bubble ones? Yeah. Juliette Claro: So we had one of these and you know it was the very first webcam and i wanted to try it so Juliette Claro: i videoed my class singing this french song from avantage you know like the Juliette Claro: textbook of the time that was a back in fashion i just thought you know what Juliette Claro: it's very boring but we're going to sing along and we're going to create new Juliette Claro: lyrics to it and this song is on youtube so if you search for apps cross french Juliette Claro: lesson it's apps cross awbs Juliette Claro: and you'll find it and i'm embarrassed thinking oh my god but look at the chaos Juliette Claro: look at the chaos look at the fun they're having and the fact that they're in Juliette Claro: their 30s and they still remember it. Will Marks: That's wonderful, isn't it? Juliette Claro: That can't be wrong, but it's completely chaotic in that classroom. Will Marks: But that's, again, that's what we need. My kids, the other day, Will Marks: they were like, sorry, we were a bit loud today. And I was like, kid. Will Marks: I don't want it to be silent. I just want it to be noise about the lesson. Will Marks: If it's a noise about the lesson, I'm so happy. Juliette Claro: You know, I had a job interview once in a school and I got the job, Juliette Claro: but I didn't take the job because the kids were not allowed to speak. Juliette Claro: So when I did the think-pair-share and the activities where they had to speak Juliette Claro: to each other, all the kids turned Juliette Claro: around and looked at the deputy as in like, are we allowed to speak? Juliette Claro: And then the deputy said, oh, we're very sorry, but zero tolerance on noise. Juliette Claro: So we have to be silent. And at the end, they said to me, if we offer you the Juliette Claro: job, will you take it? And I said, no. And he said, oh, oh, sorry. Juliette Claro: Why? I said, I'm sorry. I can't have silent languages lesson. It just doesn't go. Juliette Claro: Languages are alive. And I think there needs to be an element of speaking. Juliette Claro: And I didn't take the job. I just couldn't see myself working there. Will Marks: And I think you're so right. Silent language lessons terrify me. Juliette Claro: Yeah. Even sign language. I've seen sign languages lesson that are noisy. So it says a lot. Will Marks: There we go. Well, listen, I would love to keep talking. We could talk for another Will Marks: five hours on this. So much. Juliette Claro: It was lovely. Really enjoyed that conversation. Will Marks: Yeah, it's been really lovely. And I hope if ever it comes down to it, you'll do another one. Juliette Claro: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'll see you on the 23rd because now you are coming Juliette Claro: to our SIG. I will send you the link. Will Marks: Please do. Please do. Awesome. Well, listen, have a lovely rest of the day. Will Marks: Thank you so much for doing this. And we shall talk very soon. Juliette Claro: Thank you very much. Bye.